The following is an excerpt from an interview with Tom Marshall, yet another exciting piece we’ll be featuring in the book. The complete interview we’ll be presenting in the book is far longer; these juicy snippets are presented as an appetizer. Enjoy!

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When describing Tom Marshall’s lyrical contributions to the sprawling Phish catalog, certain words come to mind — elusive, off-kilter, unpredictable, playful, intelligent, challenging — and a conversation with the band’s prolific wordsmith can elicit the same adjectives. Chris Bertolet talked with Tom in October of 1999 about where he’s been, where he’s going, and what he’s driving.

Chris Bertolet: Where does the songwriting process begin for you? Is it more a flow, or something you have to harness?

So far, I’ve never really adopted a consistent method that I’ve stuck with long enough to definitively say, “this is how I write.” For the most part, I listen to what people say, and read a lot. In the course of a week or so, a prominent idea will drift among my other thoughts that I may feel I could expand upon. I like writing on a PC because I erase and scribble too much for standard pen and paper. I’ll often construct a poem in an email to my friend and long-time recipient of my first drafts, Scott Herman.

CB: Is that the Herman who’s credited on “Limb By Limb?”

That’s him. His first credit was “Cavern”, but he actually went uncredited on the second verse of “Squirming Coil” (“I saw Satan on the beach”) and inspired “Lawn Boy”, among others. He receives my poems first. I don’t need a reply or any actual editing; just the fact that he reads them makes them real for me. It’s their first stage of life. If he does reply or happen to mention a particular one later, that just further cements it in my head as a good potential song. It helps to know that I’m writing for someone other than myself. I like the idea of provoking some sort of reaction.

CB: How long have you known Trey?

We first met in eighth grade at the Princeton Day School in New Jersey. The two of us didn’t really have any kind of relationship at the time aside from being part of the same musical gang, if you will. Many of our friends played instruments and wrote original songs and recorded them in home-made studios. He left in tenth grade and went to Taft. We lost touch and then randomly both met again at Mercer County Community College where we were forced to go since we were both kicked out of college after our Freshmen year for different reasons. It was great — we just picked up where we had left off three years earlier. We built a mini-studio in his dad’s basement, got tremendously stoned nightly and recorded lots of music, like “Divided Sky”, “Letter to Jimmy Page”, “Antelope”, etc..

CB: Was Bivouac Jaun from that era? “Little Squirrel?”

Yeah, that was one of the products of the Trey’s dad’s basement recordings. Like I said, we might not have been completely wasted the entire time we recorded, but if there were moments of lucidity, I don’t remember them.

CB: What was your involvement in the “Gamehendge” story and Trey’s thesis project?

I wrote a poem called “McGrupp and the Watchful Hose Masters”, which became the song “McGrupp”, in which most of the “Gamehendge” characters were first named. Also, I came up with the name “Gamehendge” when Aaron Wolf and I wrote “Wilson.” Aside from that, it was all Trey.

CB: What do you and Trey think about it now?

I love it! I always have — it’s incredible really, like Phish’s “Jesus Christ Superstar.” I never understood the plot twist that became necessary because of that silly line where Tela gets killed, though. We should have written that out. As for Trey, I think he’s still proud of “Gamehendge” too. There have been a few ideas to resurrect it — an interactive CD-ROM or something similar — so my guess is that eventually it will come to life again.

CB: What have been your favorite live Phish experiences?

The Clifford Ball was unforgettable — that and The White Album Halloween as well. I think the music outdid the spectacle and all expectations and hype. Runners-up for me are the Atlanta Halloween when they played Remain in Light, and New Years 1995 in the Garden.

CB: You mentioned that you read a lot. Books? Magazines? Bathroom walls?

Books! Currently, I’m re-reading _One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest_, by Ken Kesey. Seeing the movie is no reason not to read the book. I really like to think that the proceeds funded the Merry Pranksters’ pranks. I also really got into _Hannibal_ by Thomas Harris — it’s the sequel to _The Silence of the Lambs_. It is an unbelievably eerie, horrifying novel that has been haunting me since it came out. I also recently read _The Endurance_, named after the ship in which Sir Earnest Shackleton attempted to reach Antarctica, and then cross it on foot in 1915. Unfortunately, 100 miles from land, the ship was frozen in pack ice and crushed. At that point, it became a survival story. The ship’s photographer captured all of this. He’d taken about 200 pictures of the entire adventure and had to dive into ice water to rescue the negatives as the ship was sinking. This is a traveling museum exhibit also, and it’s currently in New York City.

CB: Any favorite movies?

The Godfather (I and II), Apocalypse Now, and Full Metal Jacket, to name a few.

CB: What do you perceive as the relationship between words and music? How is that perception evolving?

I like that you used the word “evolving” in that question. I enjoy thinking back to man’s earliest ancestors and how language was created as they evolved. I think music evolved next to and in conjunction with language, the primary instruments being voice and rhythm. So music drew upon language. But even while it encompassed and surpassed language, words were necessary for survival and progress, while music was a luxury, a means of celebration or relaxation. I think that is still essentially true today; music is a higher form of language, if you will. It sets our species apart from others.

CB: What are your favorite Phish songs?

At a show, I tend to want to hear the newest stuff — something I haven’t heard before — to gauge the audience’s acceptance maybe, or just to hear Phish’s arrangement. “Bug” was cool to hear. Since it never really caught on with the other Phish guys after Trey and I wrote it in 1997, it kind of became Amfibian’s signature tune…then Phish rediscovered it and it turned out to be the perfect Phish song. I thought so anyway. I really liked “Meat” for a while — I think I am in the minority on that one, but I think it rocks. I still never tire of “Halley’s”, “Punch” and “Sloth”, though; I’d have to say those are my unchanging favorites.

CB: Do you and the band feel pressure from fans not to change — to remain Good Ole Phish?

I don’t feel that pressure. The band might, I suppose. I do stay away from the negative subjects discussed on the Phish.net, though, because then I might feel like I had to respond. Like, the “Trey sucks now, is he on cocaine?” kind of thing. As a fan, I find that their constant change keeps things fresh and exciting, and they can always revert to old Phish when they want to. I don’t buy into the rehash-the-past crap. Forge onward. Change is built into the band.

CB: Do you ever find that when you set out to say one thing, or even nothing at all, you wind up saying something else entirely? Happy accidents, so to speak?

Constantly. I rarely sit down and say what the song is going to be about. I’ll often begin writing by putting down a line that I’ve been repeating in my head for a while. In many cases the finished product doesn’t even contain that line — or it’s been severely altered. For example, “Wolfman’s Brother” was about an ocean voyage at first — I think only the “ship that’s run aground” line was salvaged from the original. Sometimes you have to let it flow rather than steer it. That’s how I avoid writer’s block, too…I guess I’m lucky and don’t have to write, which makes a huge difference. I’m not feeding my family on my words. Actually, I am, but they’d still eat if I stopped writing for a six-month stretch, you know? I’d just have to return the BMW, is all.

CB: Why not an old, funky Benz? Something with a little more character.

I don’t like the old, funky shit. I have an M3. It laughs at cars with character.

CB: What’s the strangest interaction you’ve ever had with a fan?

I don’t fit into the standard Phishhead profile. I don’t wear the hippie uniform, the hair’s all wrong, and I’m about 15 years older than the average fan. They usually think I’m security or something, and ask me where to park. I always tell them, by the way. I find a special place for them.

CB: Let’s dive into some of your other work. “Lifeboy” seems to be a satirical poke at religion-as-crutch. What was your religious background as a kid?

I was kind of anti-religion for a while. Not because it was imposed heavily on me as a child or anything like that — in fact, I was brought up religion-free, and as such I guess I just kind of landed on the “science” side of the argument. Worshipping an invisible ghost and using it to explain away nature’s mysteries didn’t make much sense to me. I mean, before people knew what thunder was, they thought the gods were angry with them. I will say that I’m pretty spiritual, though, in many ways. I had my own religion in my head, I guess. But I found it easy to make fun of any organized religion growing up, and really enjoyed sticking it to any overly fervent, born-again Jesus freaks I encountered. I think I’ve finally grown out of that phase. I think the values and teachings one can be exposed to in church are, for the most part, harmless. In many cases, they’re wonderful — and certainly not something to ridicule in these days of school shootings and loss of morality and responsibility. I was surprised to see my sister who lives in San Diego get involved with the Unitarian Church recently with her family, and was touched to learn about how they help the poor in their community. Church isn’t for me, I don’t think, but the overall goodness and selfless vibe that Jesus taught is obviously something I want my kids to learn as well…albeit without all the God and guilt rap. I’ll give them sermons from the _Helping Friendly Book_, I suppose. That’ll send them over the edge.

CB: “Icculus is coming, and he is pissed.”

I don’t think the world needs another angry, vengeful god. How about, “Icculus is coming, and he’s giving out office supplies.” Gods never do cool shit like that anymore.

CB: Maybe that was on the tablet Moses broke — “Thou shalt not keep a cluttered workspace.” If you could write the eleventh commandment, what would it be?

“Thou shalt ignore all prior commandments and think for thineself, thou weak-minded sheep!”

CB: Have you ever written a song to someone?

All my songs are for Jesus.

Carl Gerhard, who played trumpet with the Giant Country Horns when Phish toured with them in Summer 1991, and who has played with Phish on many other occasions over the years (most recently in “Tubthumping” at Hampton on 11/21/98), agreed to answer a few questions.

A copyright is claimed on this interview by The Mockingbird Foundation. It is being exclusively published on Rec.Music.Phish, the Phish.Net Digest, and the Mockingbird Foundation’s website. It may not be republished anywhere in any form without the express written consent of The Mockingbird Foundation (mockingbird@netspace.org). Please feel free to link to this interview from your website or send the url to friends. This interview may be found at http://www.phish.net/mockingbird/book/interviews/gerhard.html.

Charlie Dirksen (“CD”): Hi Carl! First off, what’s the story behind your first gig on trumpet with Phish, which I believe was on 11/11/88 at the Stone Church in Newmarket, NH?

Carl Gerhard (“CG”): I remember it well. I had just moved to Newport, Rhode Island, in September of that year. Page had asked me to come up and sit in that night. I met the band in a pizza place before the show, and we just talked about music and what I might want to play with them that night. I remember it being a blast! I felt right at home up there being with Page. They played with such intensity, and the crowd was totally into it.

CD: When did you first meet Page?

CG: I’ve known Page since we were about nine or ten. We used to jam together in all kinds of musical settings. We would also sit around and improvise for hours. Absolutely one of the nicest, funniest guys on earth, too!

CD: How and when did the Giant Country Horns begin?

CG: I guess the idea for the horn section spawned from having Russell [Remington] and Dave [Grippo] already in town sitting in with Phish, and then I came up for a “jazz gig” with Phish at Nectar’s in January 1991. That’s when I met Dave. We played a short rehearsal at the band house and then the gig that night under an assumed name. I think it was something like “The Johnny B. Fishman Jazz Ensemble.” I was sick as a dog, and spent most of that day in Page’s apartment. The next day, Trey asked me if I could get away from work that Summer to tour with the band.

CD: Did you rehearse for the Summer 1991 Phish tour?

CG: We rehearsed for about two or three days, tops. The ideas and music just seemed to flow and fall right into place. The most amazing thing was seeing the band’s reaction when we first added the horn section in rehearsal. I knew right then that this was gonna be something special.

CD: I love it when everything proceeds according to plan. Who wrote the charts for that tour?

CG: We all had a hand in the arranging. Trey had done most of it, I think. I brought up a couple of things that a friend of mine named Rob Vuono wrote after listening to some tapes the band sent me. He wrote the horn lines to “Alumni Blues” and “The Landlady.” Some nights, we actually wrote arrangements between soundcheck and the show.

CD: One of the things that got me back into Phish, after several years of not really listening to them, was a copy of the 7/21/91 Arrowhead Ranch show, and particularly the playing of the GCH in that show. Your trumpet playing in the “Contact” continues to this day to make me smile. Do you have any particular memories of that show? It is probably the most circulated Phish show from 1991.

CG: Thanks for the compliment. I remember that most of my family came from New Jersey to see the show. That was something special. The whole “Arrowhead Ranch experience” helped me realize just how powerful Phish was as a group.

CD: Do you recall any show from that summer in particular?

CG: They were all incredible in their own way. I’d have to say that playing the last gig in Atlanta and sharing the stage with the Aquarium Rescue Unit was very memorable. It was the last show that Russell, Dave and I played together as the original Giant Country Horns.

CD: What was the travel like on tour in Summer 1991, especially the hot run through the south?

CG: Things have changed since ’91! Russ, Fish, Dave and I drove in Fish’s Dodge Caravan. No A.C. We had to keep the heat on so the engine wouldn’t overheat!

CD: Did the tone of the horns suffer?

CG: I don’t think the instruments suffered, but we were hurtin’.

CD: Whose idea was it to wear those white suits, anyway?

CG: I don’t know. But I do remember Page coming back from a costume or thrift shop in Burlington the day before the first Burlington show. He picked up three white tuxedo jackets and three pairs of white pants. He took the Jackets and put them in a tub of pink dye and the pants in purple dye. They told us to go out and get sneakers that matched. Dave had white and Russell had black, so I wore one black and one white sneaker.

CD: Any wacky road stories from the tour on 1991?

CG: It was really hot at Arrowhead, so we asked Trey if we could do just one gig in shorts and a T shirt. No go. Trey said that the suits were part of the show, the GCH had to look like the GCH, so we had to “tough it out.” Our skin was pink for a month!

CD: What was it like being on the road for several weeks?

CG: Being on the road with the band and crew was really fantastic. A few stories though have kept me sworn to secrecy.

CD: Do you recall seeing fans following the whole tour that summer?

CG: I remember a few fans that showed up nearly everywhere we played.

CD: It’s been a long time since the Giant Country Horns have played anywhere. Why is that?

CG: It has been a long time. Too long unfortunately. Logistics, probably.

CD: Any hope to see them playing again in the future with Phish?

CG: I really hope so. It’s great to go up and sit-in by myself, but there’s nothing like being a part of a live horn section!

CD: When did you first start playing trumpet?

CG: I started playing when I was about ten.

CD: How often do you play your trumpet today?

CG: I play quite a bit actually. I’m a full time Navy musician currently teaching at the Armed Forces School of Music in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

CD: What are your greatest musical influences?

CG: I grew up in a family that totally supported my music. I used to sit in my living room at home for hours and try to play along with every song that came on the radio. That really helped me develop my ear and from that, I was able to recognize and memorize tunes. I had a great band director in high school (Norris Birnbaum), who loved quality music, regardless of idiom or genre. Our band was always performing the most challenging pieces. He pushed me to be a more well rounded player. I’ve been a Navy musician for 14 years, and I’ve played with some super talented people who have influenced how I play today. I mean, some really hot musicians. I can’t say enough about Phish. You can’t help but be positively influenced and motivated by their music and their musicianship. No doubt about it, they are the best at what they do.

CD: What’s currently in your CD player, or players?

CG: Nicholas Payton (Gumbo Nouveau). Phenomenal trumpet player. Also, another great trumpet player/singer – Jack Sheldon w/Ross Thompkins (On My Own).

CD: As you know, Phish has released a box set of their Hampton 1998 shows, which feature you on the encore, “Tubthumping,” with Tom Marshall on vocals, too. Any memories of that evening that you’d like to share?

CG: I had no idea what Trey wanted me to play until after the first set. He told me before the show that he had a surprise in store, and that Tom [Marshall] and I would be doing the encore together. We went into the band rehearsal room (after hearing the CD once!) and fooled around with it during the set break with the band, myself and Tom. It was a blast, to say the least!

CD: Have any comments on your performance that night?

CG: I’m my own worst critic Charlie, but I couldn’t have enjoyed myself more!

CD: Do you have any favorite Phish songs?

CG: Just about everything we’ve played horns on.

CD: Do you have a favorite studio Phish release?

CG: Hoist was great! Being a part of the tour that promoted that album was cool too! I also love Rift. It came out when I lived in Italy, so I was able to turn on my Italian musician friends to Phish – they loved it!

CD: Thanks again, Carl, for taking the time to answer some questions!

If you have any further questions or kind words for Carl Gerhard, then please forward them to cdirksen@earthlink.net, who will make sure they get to him.

Thanks for reading!

Copyright 2000 The Mockingbird Foundation. A copyright is claimed on this interview by The Mockingbird Foundation. It is being exclusively published on Rec.Music.Phish, the Phish.Net Digest, and the Mockingbird Foundation’s website. It may not be republished anywhere in any form without the express written consent of The Mockingbird Foundation (mockingbird@netspace.org). Please feel free to link to this interview from your website or send the url to friends

Tom Marshall, whose Amfibian Tales will be out on disc very soon, agreed to answer some questions from folks working for the Mockingbird Foundation. Tom has graciously agreed to answer your questions with the assistance of Jambase.com. These questions aren’t duplicative of any you may have seen answered in other interviews with Tom, so please read on. Also, read Mockingbird contributor Chris Bertolet’s review of Amfibian Tales on JamBands.com.

Charlie Dirksen (“CD”): For those who aren’t aware, how and when did Amfibian begin?

Tom Marshall (“TM”): It began as a band called Utalk, with me, Trey, Peter Cottone on drums and Matt Kohut on bass. We’re all friends from Princeton Day School — back in the 70′s/80′s. Matt, Pete and I began practicing various songs that Trey and I wrote in anticipation of a Utalk tour. Those songs were Dirt, Farmhouse, Twist Around, Bug and Heavy Things among others. Then, after an abortive practice session with Trey up in Vermont, which spelled the end of Utalk, the NJ side of the band decided to keep the dream alive. We added a few new musicians, and changed the name to Amfibian.

CD: Why do you say the practice session “abortive”? Were things just not gelling?

TM: Pretty much. Trey had a friend come up to play second guitar in the band, and we all just didn’t find a groove, I guess. It was pretty discouraging for all of us, but it made sense at the same time.

CD: How did you meet the other musicians on “Amfibian Tales”?

TM: Pete and Matt and I go way back. So do Marc Daubert and I. Aside from that, everyone on the disk I’ve met through the local (Princeton, NJ) music scene. JP Wasicko and Scott Metzger came from Matt’s band, F-Hole. Andrew Southern I met at PDS [Princeton Day School] — he’s a recent graduate. Anna Soloway and Steph Sanders (The Saras singers) also are from PDS. That’s the main core — there are a few others whom I’ve met along the way.

CD: Who thought of the fishy name “Amfibian”? It’s exceedingly clever. And thank god you spell it improperly with an “f”.

TM: An exceedingly clever friend of mine, John Furth, came up with that when he and I were attempting to write a book which was loosely about me — and a band I had (not yet) formed.

CD: Given your experiences over the years working close to the production of Phish’s recordings, what distinguishes “Amfibian Tales” from that production?

TM: Wow. Everything. Actually, this is probably a lot closer to Trey’s “One Man’s Trash” than any Phish release. This wasn’t done in a big studio — it was all done in my tiny farm studio. I produced it there and Andrew Southern and I mixed it and then he mastered it. It’s a very small-scale studio, based around a single DA-88 digital 8-track unit.

Craig DeLucia: In that vein, how much time have you spent watching Phish and/or other bands in the studio, and how did it affect your approach to the recording process?

TM: Well, before Phish, and in conjunction with Phish’s projects, this method is something that Trey and I have used for several years: sequestering ourselves in a farmhouse with a DA-88. That’s how most of the new Phish songs were written, and how all of these “Amfibian Tales” songs were written.

Craig: Given that some of the songs on Phish’s upcoming “Farmhouse” album are partly your compositions, did you make a decision to exclude those songs from your album? Or other songs you’ve written that Phish plays extensively? (“Bug” and “Heavy Things” come to mind.)

TM: Not really. I mean, that wasn’t our thinking process. We just wrote new stuff. None of the songs on “Amfibian Tales” has been performed live yet. Trey’s name does appear as writer for one song, “Nothing,” which he and I wrote on my farm two years ago. But I don’t think it was ever considered by Phish.

Craig: Was any consideration given to including older songs that you’ve written, like putting your own spin on “It’s Ice” or any number of older songs that you wrote for Phish?

TM: No. These are all original compositions. Amfibian the band would certainly consider Trey/Tom songs as fair game for live performances, though, but I doubt that we’d focus on any Phish staples.

Craig: You’ve been writing songs for so long now. What made you choose to release some of your work now?

TM: It was kind of a timing thing. I started spending a lot of time on my farm recently, and the songs just happened naturally. People would stop by and we’d record. Eventually I needed to do something with them so I could move forward. Just listening to them once a week didn’t satisfy my urge to get them out somehow.

CD: I miss farms. My great aunt and uncle used to own a modest and old horse farm in the Lexington, Kentucky area, and I have fond memories of roaming the fields and barns and woods. I love the smell of manure. The smell of manure reminds me of vacations that I used to take as a child to Kentucky (just as the smell of patchouli oil mixed with wookie body odor reminds me fondly of being on tour with the Dead or Phish). Do you have any animals on your farm?

TM: There is the memory of animals. The way the barns are designed all reflect the fact that they once housed cows and sheep and pigs. But ever since my Grandmother and Grandfather moved in around 1930, they adapted all the buildings for human use, and leased the fields to a local farmer, whose son and grandson still farm it today.

Craig: How was “Amfibian Tales” recorded? Is it mostly ‘live-in-studio’ tracks, or solo instrument tracks with successive overdubs?

TM: It’s a mixture of both. “Dream Satellite” was recorded with all of Amfibian playing live, for example. “Sleep as it Grows,” on the other hand, was built track by track. Although, even on an entirely overdubbed song, the basic first part of the track is often done with two people playing their parts simultaneously — which imparts something of a performance vibe into the track.

Craig: Was most of the material written before you entered the studio or while the sessions were in progress?

TM: All songs were primarily written in-session.

Craig: What did you find most difficult about the recording process?

TM: Deciding what should and should not go on the final disk. The Internet makes that decision slightly easier, because the songs that get cut can still be released as MP3s, which we plan to do.

Craig: How hard was it to “let go” and decide that a particular song, or the album as a whole, was “done”?

TM: Since there was only a self-imposed deadline, it was extremely difficult. We kept adding songs, and wanting to fix the old ones.

Craig: Is this a one-shot or a possible ongoing project?

TM: Oh, definitely an ongoing thing. I’m upgrading my studio as we speak and can’t wait to get back in. I’m also hoping to have Trey down for some Phish writing soon. We’ve also been doing a lot of work with Chris Harford, another local musician/producer, and that looks really hopeful. We’re thinking perhaps of an Amfibian/Harford disk — “Live in the Barn,” or something like that. Check out Chris’s stuff at http://www.chrisharford.com/. Matt and JP are the rhythm sectionon most of his beautiful new disk, “Wake.”

CD: Any plans for an Amfibian tour to support the album? Or in the future?

TM: We’re talking about it and playing a lot lately, so it’s a distinct possibility. A co-tour with The Saras and Chris Harford might be in the works too. There’s a cool music scene going on here and it would be silly not to jump in.

Craig: We’ve seen the effect that the Phish fan community can have on the tours and live shows of other artists, from the influx of Phishheads to the MMW scene, to Son Seals recent “thank you” for our support. How has this affected Amfibian?

TM: Well, I’ll put it this way: I think 99% or more of our audience for the five shows we played were Phish heads wondering what the hell Amfibian was all about.

Craig: Some of your most memorable Phish moments on stage have been as gags and jokes. Do you worry that fans won’t take your album or band seriously, since you’re the “Tubthumping” guy or the “Shine” guy to many people who may not realize your lyrical contributions to Phish?

TM: No, I’m not really concerned. Funny, serious, who cares?

CD: I think you should be concerned about the people who seriously don’t find you at all funny. I know I am. Do you remember what you were thinking just before you went on stage for the “500 Miles” bit in the 12/30/97 Harpua? I busted a gut at that.

TM: Yeah — I was nervous as hell, as usual, before I got on stage. I was probably thinking that I wish I knew Harpua better so I’d know when to go on…

Phillip Zerbo: Your performances with Phish have always placed you in the role of the “front man in a glam rock band” (Roger Daltrey, Bruce Springsteen) or as the “straight man in an inside joke” (Shine, 500 Miles, Champagne Supernova), both very extroverted personas. Your “stage presence” in the performances with Amfibian are much more “restrained,” almost introverted. What’s up with that?

TM: Well, for Amfibian’s shows I was sitting behind a keyboard, actually pressing down on the keys now and then! This restrained me I suppose. But, boy, did I want to go and throw a stage dive now and then.

PZ: Do you pay attention to any fan reviews? What do you think of them? Do you perceive them differently when they are reviews of Amfibian, or reviews of songs you have written performed by Phish?

TM: I read them. I found them mostly positive. Phish song reviews I can distance myself from slightly, unless they’re specifically about the lyrics. Amfibian reviews I couldn’t step back from and insert another person between myself and the reviewer. In that sense, I took them rather personally and was happy to find that people in general just had a good time at Amfibian, and didn’t slice and dice each aspect of the show like they do with Phish.

PZ: Has any element of a fan review or an interaction with any fan ever made its way into a lyric of a tune that Phish performs?

TM: Hmm… no, I don’t think so. There are some aspects of the “scene” I suppose that creep in here and there, simply because it’s such a large part of Phish and, consequently, my experience… from where I’m forced to draw inspiration.

CD: What about “A Thousand Barefoot Children Outside, Dancing On My Lawn”? Wasn’t that lyric about Trey’s “interaction” — so to speak — with fans on his lawn?

TM: I’d heard that too — about how he was renting a place at the Jersey shore, I think, and kids kept appearing while his family was eating dinner or something. That really did happen, but it also really had nothing to do with that lyric. I was thinking more of the Mann Music Center’s back lawn seats, I think.

PZ: When you are at a Phish show, is there a line that you feel between being a “fan” and being a more active agent in the creative process, as it is happening on stage? Do you consider yourself a “fan” or is it something different?

TM: I’m a fan. I’m constantly reminded that there’s something else there, like getting a knowing glance from someone, or recognizing an emotion behind a lyric or something. But for the most part, when I’m in the audience, I’m a fan.

CD: As a fan, then, do you ever find yourself going “I wish they had jammed out that [name of tune] more” ? Or “Man, if I hear Trey butcher Coil like that again..” ? Or do you miraculously remain totally positive — and not in the least bit jaded — even after all these years?

TM: Ha! Well, I’m jaded in certain ways I think. Like, it’s very easy for a Phish show just to be a social event rather than a musical thing — so I might find myself talking over a song because I’ve heard it a lot, or spending too much time floating around backstage. But I think I remain positive about the music and let the band steer me where they want me to go.

CD: That’s wonderful! I found that after heavily seeing shows for years, taking a break and only seeing a handful of shows in a given year really helped me appreciate everything more (again). It became easier to “let go my conscious self” and let go all of the history in my head and not try to “steer” the band. What do you like most about the Phish community? Or the scene? Is there anything about the Phish scene that really disturbs you?

TM: No — I can’t really think of any aspect of the scene at large that bothers me specifically. It’s completely the opposite, actually. I think there’s a great give and take between the fans and the band that you don’t find elsewhere. The band keeps the ticket prices relatively low, and keeps the quality of the whole experience very high. The Phish fan community knows what a good thing they’ve got and strives to keep it that way by displaying a whole lot of courtesy and compassion and consideration for others. Walk out in the crowd and there’s rarely anything behavior-wise to complain about. When you do hear something negative, it’s the exception, not the rule, and that’s great.

CD: Is there any special interaction that you’ve had with another fan at a show that sticks out in your memory?

TM: Oh, the Benjy [Eisen] Uno card incident perhaps. He made a big spectacle out of giving me a card from some weird game I used to play in French class or something like that. I think it was at an MSG show. I refused the gift from him just because I thought there might be too much significance attached to his gesture. Later I learned that the Uno-card craze had been credited, or blamed, actually, on me!

PZ: A number of the songs on “Amfibian Tales” are co-authored by Amfibian’s bass player, Matt Kohut. How is writing a song with Matt different than writing a song with Trey?

TM: Matt and I are newer at it. That’s really all. We know each other very well, and that’s really one of the big hurdles, I think. You need to know what to expect of the other person and where you fit into his/her method of writing. Matt has tons of musical ideas, as you can see by listening to F-Hole (http://www.f-hole.net/), and can use lyrical help now and then — so it’s perfect.

Mark Toscano: I’m a big fan of Ween. What do you think of Ween? I heard that Amfibian worships the ground that Ween shits on.

TM: Ugh. That’s such a pleasant way to put it. Amfibian covered “Birthday Boy” — does that constitute worship? Matt also played bass for their “Golden Country Greats” tour. So, apart from some cross-pollination, there’s no organized prayer group or anything. I do personally worship them, however — but in private, and in sanitary, conditions.

CD: What would you say were Amfibian’s primary musical influences, if any?

TM: Amfibian is a mix of 35 year-olds and 20 year-olds. I thought it was cool when the younger guys would bring in, say, a Steely Dan or King Crimson disc that we grew up on to play for us because they had heard it for the first time. That happened a lot. The influences are consequently across the board. On “Amfibian Tales” I think you’ll hear some Tom Waits, some Band, some Beatles, some Phish perhaps?

CD: Well, as a huge Beatles and Phish fan, I look forward to hearing it! Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts, Tom.

TM: No, thank you! I would like to mention in closing to please check out the http://www.furrythug.com/ website, which should be coming online in early April, where you’ll be able to get “Amfibian Tales” among other items. Thanks to the tireless Mockingbird crew for these questions.

Hi everyone! Kevin and I hope that you enjoy this interview. Thanks especially to Kevin, the Mockingbird Foundation and, of course, Phish and Dionysian Productions, for making this interview a reality.

If you have any additional questions, please let cdirksen@earthlink.net know. We are interested in doing some follow-up questions. The first follow-up material is below!

PHISH holds the copyright on this interview. They have given permission for it to be exclusively published on Rec.Music.Phish (incl. the Phish.Net Digest) and on the Mockingbird Foundation’s web page. This interview may not be republished anywhere in any form — online or offline — without the express written consent of Phish. Kevin and I certainly encourage you, however, to link to this Interview from your Phish page.

Charlie Dirksen: When did you begin working for Dionysian Productions, and what is your job title and responsibilities?

I work for Phish not Dionysian Productions, though the distinction is pretty insignificant, since Dionysian only currently manages one artist, Phish. My job title is Phish Archivist and main responsibility is to manage the band’s history, information and creations. I basically keep track of what they do and all their output, track its flow in from the band and organization out to its users and then back.

CD: Is being the Phish Archivist itself a full-time job for you?

Yes and no. I work full-time for Phish but my responsibilities for the band are broader than my work in the archives. I also represent the band as In-House Counsel to the degree I am needed in that capacity. I don’t take on outside legal or archival work, except to volunteer my time for some local causes.

CD: When was your first Phish show?

September 29, 1991 at the Agora Ballroom in Cleveland, OH. It’s funny, I just finished reviewing it before writing This Month in Phish History (for September, 1991).

CD: What was your first Phish tape?

February 6, 1989 from Nectar’s. I’ll never forget hearing the fast version of Sanity on that tape. It’s like a 4th or 5th generation cassette that’s worn nearly to pieces by now.

CD: Do you have any personal favorite shows? A pesonal favorite Era of Phish?

There are too many greats to list and a lot of nights have been personally significant for so many reasons. A good example is December 31, 1991. That was my first Phish new year’s show and my first really long road trip to a show. They played tremendously, I went with people I love and met new folks who have grown to be counted among my closest friends in the world. It’s even tougher for me to choose a favorite era. I think every era of the band’s history reveals something about them, their music and music in general, and the audience. Every point in Phish history has some sort of real value to me and it’s impossible to appraise that value relative to similar thoughts or feelings I had at a different time. Some shows seem like perfect showcases of the group’s sound at a certain place or time and some periods seem dull at the moment compared to some show from “the old days” but in retrospect are very exciting. New favorite shows, songs and eras arise all the time depending on what I’m listening to and why.

CD: Are you yourself a taper? How long have you been taping?

Yes, my name is Kevin and I am a Taper. It’s a strange question since I haven’t taped Phish consistently since a couple years before I began my job (my taping fell off during law school), but I have taped the band as recently as this summer. I still tape other shows too, mostly jazz shows and mostly if I think others won’t be capturing it. I think I taped my first concert in 1989 or so. I began my taping career by making recordings of bands I played drums in and quickly branched out from there.

CD: I played drums for about 8 years or so. The places I’ve lived for the last ten years of my life haven’t been suitable for serious drum practice. Do you play anymore?

I still have my kit and stay in touch with the local music scene. Occasionally I’ll get together with friends and jam but my apartment is too small and thinly-walled to effectively practice. I sit in with local bands once in a while. A day or two after Dick passed away, I sat in with Blues For Breakfast during their yearly tribute for Garcia. We played Tangled Up in Blue and I’m told it sounded allright. I’ve never developed my drumming skills to a high level. I can play along with most grooves.

CD: Do you tape other bands? What other bands/music do you enjoy?

I enjoy all kinds of bands and music. Phish is my favorite existing musical group and they have been since I first saw them…maybe even before. That said, I catch a lot of jazz, reggae, funk, straight rock and roll and even some of what would be defined as heavy metal. I love bands like Iron Maiden, Metallica, Led Zeppelin. The psychedelic music scene had a massive impact on me too in terms of Grateful Dead, Hot Tuna and stuff from the San Francisco and English psychedelic scenes. Later I discovered the Detroit music scene which included a lot of rock, jazz and blues. I love just about anything with James Carter or Dennis Chambers. I am definitely a self-professed music fanatic.

CD: What, generally speaking, does the Archives contain? For example, does it have all of the shows from 1992 onward on digital SBD?

The Phish Archives generally contain the band and organization’s entire physical history. It’s a very broad project encompassing written materials, photographs, audio, video, art, merchandise, stage props and costumes, all kinds of memorabilia from tickets and passes to fan mail and anything saved and donated by the band, family or crew through the past sixteen years.

Your question is more specific to audio. We have many formats of audio through the years. In general, we have all of the shows from Fall 1992 to present on a digital format, which is typically DAT. The digital soundboard (SBD) distinction is somewhat inaccurate, as most of the reference tapes Paul makes contain some mix of audience from the stage, the mix position, or both. The band has kept so-called digital SBD tapes of every show since November 19, 1992, and of quite a few before then, too. It was November 1992 when Paul permanently added a DAT recorder to the front-of-house equipment.

CD: Is there anything the Archives needs that fans might be able to provide, or help to locate?

We’re not seeking submissions, technically, but the answer is a resounding “yes”! We have audio recordings of around sixty to seventy percent of the shows Phish has played and video of far less. We only have those photographs we have shot or commissioned on an “official” basis and there are obviously lots of unofficial images that would be great to add to the Archives. Anything from any of the categories I’ve listed that is original — or of very high quality or significance — is welcomed. I’m sure someday we may seek out specific additions to the collections. So far it’s been all I can do to organize, document and preserve what’s already been put away.

CD: When was the Archives first established or started? Did anyone manage it before you?

The Archives were set up as an entity or department when I began my job in January of 1996. I have rough notes about the band’s archives and how to separate, store and use the collection that the band’s manager, John Paluska wrote in around 1990 or so I’d say. Mike (Gordon) and the other band members began keeping notes in journals, photos, articles and tapes very early in the band’s history… certainly before they were called “Phish.” Mike was the first custodian of all the business records and then Paul Languedoc eventually kind of took that over. Various family members, crew members and friends kept bits and pieces of things the whole time.

After he started managing Phish in 1988-89, John kept things in pretty good order in terms of trying to get shows documented, though it must have been hard to look forward (as a manager) and backward (as an archivist) at the same time. I think it was when Shelly Culbertson started working for Dionysian in 1992 that the archive project got its first real supervisor. Shelly continued until I arrived, when she was able to turn her attention to ticketing and running our web site. Jason Colton, who also works for Dionysian, and the former head or Phish Mail Order Cynthia Brown, both helped manage a lot of the band’s images when they began work, soon after Shelly. Paul recorded shows and tried to keep them labeled and accounted for but I get the impression it was pretty loose in the early days, especially early touring days. The mixes, equipment and his duties varied a lot from day to day from what I can tell. Phish can thank a huge number of dedicated fans who documented the early experience and who were incredibly generous and helpful with piecing together the holes from the early days for the Archives. I turn to those folks more often than not to answer questions about early shows.

CD: How is the Archives organized, in general? What media? Did you seek any outside help in getting it started or organized?

It’s set up chronologically by category and tied to relevant events. It is designed with the goal that users can most easily locate the item(s) or information they need, and use/return it with a minimum of difficulty or wear on the collection. I think I already gave a short list of media previously. It’s very broad… from giant foam and metal hot dogs to every type of magnetic media to the Zero Man jumpsuit. We have the chessboard, old mini-tramps, lots of posters and flyers from shows and events and everything in between.

I sought a great deal of help setting up the Archives. All the items and information are assessed for value (i.e., keep it or not?), described in a database (which is constantly being updated), and stored in what are hopefully ideal storage conditions. As I began the interview process for the Archivist position, I contacted every “rock and roll” Archivist I could think of and followed all the leads they provided. People like Dick Latvala and Dennis McNally (GD), James Olness (originally with BGP and now his own company, J.O.E.), Rebecca Nichols and Jerry Pompili (also from BGP), Kirk West (Allman Brothers Band), John Scott, David Gans, Joey Helguera (Atlantic Records), Mary Ide (WGBH TV), Jim Henke (Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum), Danny Clinch, Taylor Crothers, Marj Minkin, Jim Pollock and David Wexler (Hollywood Vaults) all were incredibly helpful. The list is too long to thank everyone, but I went after all the information I could get on how to set up an archive of the sort the band wanted. By the time I began serious meetings with the band and management about my vision for the project, I knew a lot more than when I’d started making calls. I also contacted every manufacturer of archival software I could find to see how to go about tracking all the data we had and were about to create.

Since I began, I constantly seek out information about Archival Science, especially as it relates to the entertainment industry and business archives. I attend conferences, read on newsgroups and publications and stay in touch with as many colleagues as possible. I also have been lucky to have the help of a number of excellent interns and assistants, who have been great in physically digging through and figuring out the collection. I believe the project is worthy of total dedication to preserving and using the material. Without the information contained in our Archives, the ability to communicate what is and was Phish would be very difficult. Phish to me defies accurate description… the experience, the music, the culture surrounding all of it can only be understood through its history. I guess that’s true of most phenomena.

CD: What did you do this past week, just to put your job in greater perspective?

As always, last week was a busy one. I’m dealing with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum about the display of some items, shipped a couple DAT machines out for repair, made all the arrangements with Michael Grace (who engineered 10/31/90), made umpteen different compilations — by track — by set, etc. for the 10/31/90 release, assembled and shipped all the visual content for 10/31/90, made a few changes to some Hampton Comes Alive source tapes, had a number of meetings about humidity in our tape vault, purchased some new duplication equipment, ordered and delivered some equipment and media to the band in the studio and did some work tracking down some older tape collections… oh and I answered a few questions for the Mockingbird Project. Simultaneously, I followed through on international trademark registrations for Phish Stick and Phish Food, dealt with a number of bootleg-selling stores, wrote multiple requests for removal of illegal sales from online auction sites, worked on a licensing agreement for our mail order company, approved some legal bills, and drafted a couple other agreements. Oh, and like any other week, I spent a lot of time answering mail from people with legal and/or archival questions, and supervising my staff. Staying in touch with people in the scene is rewarding and valuable so I try to personally respond to any well-intentioned question. It’s daunting to look at in retrospect, but my average week is varied and extremely busy.

CD: What’s an example of a Gem that you have on tape that no one else has? Do you have any periods with many shows missing from the Archives?

It’s hard to mention a specific Gem. It’s like defining the best show or best period, and it’s also a loaded question, because I’m not sure what else other people might have. The complete tape of the band’s first performance together on October 30, 1983, or their entire first performance with Page, are both Gems that no one else has in any complete sense. The album masters contain myriad Gems of varying degrees and certainly no one else has those. There are so many Gems on tape and the band has traditionally shared a lot of their output with their fans, so it’s hard to say. My favorite Gem changes as often as what I’m checking out at the moment. Some of my favorite pieces in the Archives are photographs or posters that are not even anticipated by your question since it focuses on tapes. I really like the HORDE sword given to the bands who participated in the July, 1992 HORDE Tour.

There are lots of periods with many shows missing from the Archives. In general, Mike kept great audio records of shows — and even some practices — from the band’s first couple years. Around 1986 and 1987 things get pretty sketchy in terms of the number of master recordings we have in the vault. In the few years from mid-1988 to mid-1991 friends and fans really picked up the slack. That’s probably the period from which the most questions arise, since there’s been a lot of trading, mislabeling and embellishing within the Phish community, so it’s hard to judge the legitimacy of a purported “master”. A number of people have donated large collections of definite masters and there are many more claiming to have certain shows we lack in Archives.

By fall of 1991, Paul was pretty much recording every show on cassette, so we may lack some recordings from that point through Fall of 1992, but not too many. We have never made an attempt to collect or catalog audience recordings of shows that we already have soundboard tapes or mixed tapes of, but I could see it someday happening. Our collection lacks consistently good photographs of the band until the mid-1990′s, though those have begun filtering in. There’s such a large body of material out there that even considering “filling in the holes” is a daunting task. As people realize we have an archive, original materials seem to sort of find me and we adopt them with open arms.

CD: Who has access to the Archives? Do you often make tapes for VIP’s on CD, DAT and/or analog?

In a physical sense, no one has access except me and my staff. In a larger sense, the Archives exist for the use of the band and organization. The four band members, and anybody who works for Phish or its related companies are able to “check out” items as they are needed. We ship materials to and from studios, production facilities, design companies and the road constantly.

As for tape requests, occasionally I get requests from the band to make copies of certain things, depending on what projects are underway. It’s basically all for purposes of reviewing their work for public use or some sort. Any project that involves content from any type of media involves the Archives, so album production, movie production, book production, festival production and merchandise production all require materials for business purposes. Requests for tapes for family members or VIP’s occur sometimes, and I try to keep everyone listening to good stuff, but the Archives are really used to support broader projects. We have the ability to make copies on any of the mediums you mentioned.

CD: How are shows being backed up at the present time? Anything on Reel?

Some shows exist on reel-to-reel, which is the only real “archival” medium, short of glass masters or something of that sort. Most shows before 1990 or so were on cassettes, which tend to hold up pretty well if not played and if stored properly. We are (slowly) transfering the cassettes to digital formats, like DAT and CDR. From 1990 or so, much of the collection is digital (DAT, DA-88 and DA-38, a couple A-DAT’s and some VHS PCM audio. That stuff is slowly being backed onto digital mediums, mostly CDR. The latest research seems to indicate that CDR may not be the archival savior we had all hoped for, so we’re constantly reviewing what to back up and to what mediums it is best migrated.

CD: Are all Phish performances over the past few years now archived in multitrack format? If so, when did Paul start recording shows in multitrack format?

Most are. There are a few that escape multitrack because of space limitations. For example, the recent Japan shows are not on multitrack due to the difficulty of getting all of the machines over there. Paul began doing 32 track DA-88 recording in Summer/Fall 1994, and has done every show since then on 32 track, with only a few exceptions. Now we’re running 40 tracks, which include some backup tracks of the basic 2 track mix that gets run to DAT each night.

CD: Do you foresee releases from the Phish Vault/Archives in the future, similar to what Dick Latvala has done with Grateful Dead vault tapes?

I sincerely hope so. The “White Tape” was the first, being number PA1001 so I guess that leaves a lot of possible releases to come. I don’t know if it would ever be a program similar to what Dick has done with the Grateful Dead tapes. Dick tried every trick to get archival releases going after he had a few years to get the collection in some form of order, and he apparently ran into a lot of resistance — or at least a lack of agreement about what to release, and when and how. Eventually, the band decided to forego the decision-making process, and entrusted it to Dick and their studio engineer, John Cutler. That was when a steady flow of releases began. The members of Phish are very hands-on in just about every sense of the organization, so it’s really their decision what, when and if. It’s a tough decision, since their current material is so vital and exciting that the thought of archival releases tends to be more of a future vision. I see light at the end of the tunnel, and hope the possibilities are someday realized. The level of investment put into the Archives by the band and organization leads me to be confident that they will be.

CD: Are audience tapes made at same time as SBD tapes at shows, analog and digital? What mics are used for the AUD tapes?

Yes, separately and as part of the “SBD” mix DAT’s that Paul makes as reference tapes. Shows are generally recorded at least three ways. First, there is the 40 track multitrack, which is accomplished using 5 DA-88 machines, 8 tracks each. They are locked together digitally and can be striped with time code to synch up with video or film.

Second, Paul runs a mix through a simple Mackie mixer of a soundboard feed blended with a small amount of signal from audience mics placed on the stage (AT4033′s). He uses a simple delay to match the feeds for a good reference of the show.

Finally, he generally makes audience 2 track cassettes run solely from the mix position microphones, which are AKG414′s. Basically what you might make from the taper section. He occasionally will use that to isolate the room sound from one show or another to check out how his mix actually sounded in the house. There are audience feeds to the multitracks from both the on-stage Audio Technicas and the front-of-house mics. There’s often BetaCam video run from either a switched feed if a venue has cameras and a film crew for screens or from our camera mounted at the mix position if not. The BetaCam tape receives the same feed as the reference DAT’s.

CD: As you know, there have been many shows/sets released on SBD>cass>DAT by folks close to the band. Some have been tree’d heavily on the net. There are few SBDs that circulate from 1995 through the present day, however. What is the reasoning behind this change in policy? Is it true that Page no longer receives an analog master of a show right after it gets played, as he once regularly did?

I don’t know if it’s really a change in policy. I guess the change correlates in part with me starting to manage the collection, though I don’t know if it’s a cause and effect situation. The policy as to reference tapes as I said before is that they are for the band’s use only. Basically, copies are not run for anyone of any shows no matter how “close to the band” they are, unless the band specifically requests copies be made. There was a period around 1992-1993 when Paul was running DAT masters without an audience mix and running cassette backups of that soundboard mix, as it happened. Those cassette masters were often given to Page, and I suppose he did what he wanted with them. He’s recently returned all those cassettes to the Archives and the collection was quite intact, so whatever Page did, he kept them in excellent order and condition. Things find their way into circulation in the most bizarre ways that it’s hard to properly answer this question. There is no policy forbidding tape leaks exactly. I think things have just grown to be handled more formally now that the whole collection is under consistent management.

CD: Is there an official policy with respect to the taping of Phish shows from DAT to CD for personal use? A lot of people are backing up their own personal collections on CDR nowadays, and many more are making CD’s of *live* Phish for their friends.

No. Our posted taping and duplication policy says it all. It’s not media-specific. I will say that DAT to CDR transfers seem to become “bootlegs” for sale or otherwise violating our policy more often than other media, but I don’t think people trading music on CDR for personal use is any more harmful than DAT or online transfer, or any other means of trading.

CD: I’m sure some fans would like to know why live video is forbidden (e.g., at shows and on the Internet), while audio taping is allowed. I know what I’d say, but what do you have to say about this?

Live video is forbidden for a few reasons. First, the band and Elektra are the sole copyright holders of the band’s performances, and neither wishes to allow video taping at shows. That has always been the policy as far as I know, with very few exceptions. Another reason has to do with commercial bootlegging, which seems to favor video over audio, kind of like the preference for CDR over cassettes. I would hazard a guess that video taping also would require a different level of access (i.e., good sight lines, lighting, etc.) than does audio taping. Can you imagine a huge throbbing section of video techies in front of the front row of each show? Providing live video on the internet or elsewhere is discouraged because the taping is prohibited and illegal. We don’t want to allow people to provide content that they aren’t allowed to make. It’s inconsistent. That’s why we have had to take a stance against unauthorized video distributors online and elsewhere.

CD: I know as an attorney (with some copyright law experience) that it is imperative that copyright holders protect their rights, in order to avoid waiving them. I’m glad that Phish understands the importance of this. Are there 2 track copies of shows from recent years in the vault? Would releasing a SBD for tree’ing on the net, for example, require a mix-down from multitrack to two-track before it could be released?

I basically answer this above, but there are 2 track copies of essentially every show from the past seven years and of many shows before that. Releasing a reference copy of a show for any reason could theoretically be done without any mix-down, if the band was satisfied with the 2 track mix. For example, all of the music played on the From The Archives radio shows has come direct from 2 track of some form or another. For radio, I try to get out any source noise, “master” the levels to some degree, and make the segues in and out of songs, as painless as I can.

CD: How did you go about coming up with all the great music for the Clifford Ball, Great Went, and Lemonwheel Archives shows? Did the band members have any input?

When the idea to do the show came up (thanks to my colleague Jason Colton for the general idea), I approached the band for input of any sort and they basically said “run with it.” They have given tidbits of feedback at times, while the shows were on, or after they heard them (“oh god, did we do that tune!?”), but they have given no substantive suggestions of things to include or exclude. It’s a realm in which I enjoy almost total freedom, within FCC limits that is. There’s an interesting story from Lemonwheel about me trying to showcase the opening song from “The White Tape,” which apparently does not fit generally accepted government guidelines for a number of reasons.

CD: I can see the FCC having a problem with “Fuck Your Face.”

The story of coming up with the music for the shows is a bit more complicated, but I guess this is my chance to elaborate. I pretty much scan my memory banks, Archive database, friends’ suggestions, notes that I get from fans, input from anyone in the organization who’s willing to provide it, etc. I come up with initial lists, do a lot of listening, change the lists, refine them, listen some more, try to decide whether there are better or more representative offerings and eventually pace the Archives for untold hours trying to decide on a good lineup. I try to mix it up a lot, combining soundchecks, outtakes, really old stuff, really new stuff (you mentioned the lack of recent “SBD” releases) and anything that evokes extreme emotion from me. I have been given total freedom with the shows and it is a very cathartic moment for me when I step up to the mic and decks and start to roll a show.

Perhaps I build it larger than it really is, but it means more to me than I can describe here to “bring the music to the people,” and I try to really deliver the goods. I’ve seen plenty of sunrises from the Archives while trying to piece together the shows, and I’ve never left one of the broadcasts without thinking “was that version good enough?” or similar thoughts. The feedback has been great overall, and I understand that the tapes of some of the shows are still making the rounds, and I look forward to continuing the tradition. It’s funny… when I’m on the air I try to speak about the music as I would to my girlfriend Kirsten or my buddies, but I inevitably fail, and end up sounding a bit NPR-ish. She has said to me, “just speak about it like you would to me or to Dick. Tell them it’s the royal unbelievable bomb and the best example of a _____________ ever done,” or words to that effect. I hope everything that I’ve played has been the royal unbelievable bomb or incredibly hilarious or amazingly instructive about the band’s development. That’s what I’m after… oh and to try not to sound too NPR. Apparently my great excitement and enthusiasm for the music doesn’t always travel well via FM.

CD: Well, I was not fortunate enough to have been able to attend the Ball, Went, or Wheel in the flesh, but I have really enjoyed hearing the radio shows, especially the Wheel radio show, which is being circulated rather well from what I’ve gathered. It’s got some incredible Phish on it. Thank you! Will there be a show in Florida, or can you say? Will you play anything from 10/6/89 Paradise, or any other shows that don’t circulate at all?

I too really liked the show I put together for Lemonwheel, and the privilege of changing the station’s moniker to “The Love Badger” for a couple hours each day was great. I liked the concept of trying to integrate various others from our organization — who have a strong effect on Phish history — into the program. I am always taking requests and I realize that your first show “does not circulate,” but I can’t play anything from it, as I have not yet located the master tapes — if there are any. Anyone out there? In the meantime, there was no radio station at Oswego this year, but I understand there will be at the Florida event for New Year’s Eve 1999, so I’m getting a solid roster together.

CD: Excellent! Glad to hear it! Let me therefore respectfully request the 12/1/95 Mike’s Groove, which is *INSANE*, and which doesn’t circulate on what I’d consider high quality DAUD. One last question, Kevin, since I gather he meant a lot to you. What did your friendship with Dick Latvala, the Grateful Dead’s archivist, mean to you?

When I started my job as Archivist, I contacted everyone I could and got input from as many professionals in the field as possible. They came from all walks of life and worked in every field of music and media restoration, conservation, preservation, storage and appreciation. I must say that amongst them all, Dick stood out like a sore thumb. I write this with tears in my eyes, as I still can’t believe Dick is not with us. I mean, the phone is ringing and I know it won’t be him and that hurts.

Our relationship began when I called him before I started my job, sometime around the end of 1995 or January 1996. Dennis McNally put us in touch. Dick was totally humble and was glad to meet me at my earliest convenience. Apparently he had met with Shelly at some point a couple years before that and had given her a few tips, but I don’t think they stayed in close touch. Anyway, we really clicked on the phone and we made plans for me to visit him in San Francisco during the upcoming fall Phish tour.

I remember him picking me up at my hotel in San Francisco distinctly. He woke up really early as was typical (for him, not me), and drove down from Petaluma to pick me up. I offered to drive up in a rental, but he wouldn’t hear of it. When he called from the lobby, he was really funny, saying something like “you’ll recognize me immediately… I’m the old smelly guy with a GD sweatshirt on.” We met and he drove me out to the Club Front studio/rehearsal space, where the GD vault is located. It was a Saturday, the day after the Cow Palace show [November 1996]. I recall he wouldn’t go to the Cow Palace show, because it was too late at night and too much driving, but he promised we’d go together someday. We got to the vault and, before entering the building, Dick fed the homeless cats who lived there. It was something he did every day and it was consistent with his sensibilities. Dick had cats at home, too. He really loved cats.

We toured the Club Front facilities (I remember the GD’s gear being fully set up in the practice space) and the vault, which was pretty impressive. I believe Dick and his son Richie built it mostly themselves. He ran through some of the design details, as I was looking into moving our magnetic media in-house to a vault, and needed to know what a “vault” for archives consisted of. He blew past the studio material and the video, but when we hit the audio reels (my eyes locked on the Acid Test shows from 1965-66) his eyes lit up. Dick felt the weight of his job more than anyone that I’ve ever met, except maybe my dad. The stuff was like gold to him. He walked me up and down each aisle, giving various archival hints and pontificating about eras of GD music. I asked a lot of questions, and took a lot of notes, but we really connected on a personal level, too. He insisted on taking me to his house to “do some real listening,” and proceeded to spin some of the sickest material I’ve ever heard from any band. His house was packed with GD memorabilia and music. Dick showed me his house and personal collection, took me to dinner at his favorite mexican resturant and dropped me off with friends, who took me to the Sacramento Phish show that night. I recall wishing that he had joined me during the Taste with Peter Apfelbaum.

He and I stayed in close touch since that first meeting. He imparted bits of knowledge to me and he slowly warmed up to Phish’s music. We corresponded by regular mail and email and spoke pretty regularly by phone. When spring of 1997 came along, I think he was Slip Stitch and Pass’s biggest advocate. “That Mike’s Song thingy kills me!” he’d say. I remember him claiming to have listened to that track 20 times in a single sitting. I never claimed Dick was not obsessive. Sometime around then I started attending Dick’s DP Release Parties on the East Coast. I went to one in Revere, MA and was amazed at Dick’s patience with autograph seekers and the like. He had tons of friends around, but kept to the task at hand, which was explaining his picks, basically. He absolutely loved his subject and approached it like a scholar more than anything else.

His wife Carol and I went to The Gorge Phish shows together in 1998, and then we flew together back to their little compound, in order to catch the Shoreline Phish show in 1998. With Carol converted by The Gorge and Dick highly excited by Slip Stich’s material and some other stuff that I’d primed him with, we hit Shoreline together. I felt honored to sort of “escort” him to the show, and he raved about it from its outset. It was a really smoking show. I recall him posting to a GD internet forum something to the effect of “it was the best live music I’ve seen since Derek and the Dominoes and Jimi Hendrix.” I think I irritated him during the show by trying too hard to explain it to him. Obviously he got it, and didn’t need an interpreter. Our relationship flourished and he and [my girlfriend] Kirsten became phone buddies. The Picks kept pouring in and I have to credit Dick with re-awakening me to the GD’s music through his picks. He had copious notes on every tape he had, every tape there was, and a few he thought might exist but he hadn’t found them yet. I visited him again in Philadelphia for a Dick’s Picks release party, and I took Brad [Sands] and Big Phil with me to meet Dick. We had a great dinner and watched him “perform” in prime fashion at The Electric Factory, giving autographs and analyzing questions.

When the news came out that Trey and Page would join Phil as his Friends this past April, Dick was ecstatic. We made big plans and he intended to go to all three nights. We saw him first at The Warfield on April 15. He was there with Carol and friends and we watched much of the show together. He wouldn’t leave his seat in the balcony. Between us, we were beaming side-by-side like the sun. We were perhaps the two proudest people in the world at that moment. We both had tears in our eyes, and he explained that it was the best that he had felt musically since the closing of Winterland. I was wise enough that time not to interpret and I just nodded. He went on to post a glowing review, and to demand that the shows be released in their entirety asap.

Dick was on a life mission to share his love of the music and he was completely dedicated to it. He skipped the second Warfield show (I never let him live it down), in order to care for his mother who was ill. He gave his tickets to his son Richie, instead, so that he could check it out. His love for Richie was inspiring. He was so proud that his son was a genetic scientist… a real job sort of thing. We got together again for night three and watched most of the show together, once again absolutely glowing. We spoke few words those nights, but our emotions could not have been stronger. The day after the Phil and Friends shows, Kirsten and I joined Dick, Carol and Dick’s roommates for a barbecue at his house. We agreed about the epic nature of the shows, though I think I may have viewed them with a more critical eye than he. We had a great time hanging out, and I nearly forgot to leave his place to travel North for some vacation time.

More picks came out and Dick finally got to visit Vermont on Monday, July 12. He called to tell us not to make the huge drive to Brattleboro (it’s a couple hours), since he’d just be hanging with fans and wouldn’t be good company. We laughed and hopped into the car. I was so excited to have him visit our beautiful state. The release party was at a tiny little place and was poorly attended, but Dick was in prime form. We walked in only to interrupt an interview he was giving. He passed the interviewer deftly to me and bailed out back for a smoke. The night passed with music from Buddy Cage’s band and Dick’s new Pick. He was happy and optimistic. I recall him wearing a classic Santa Fe 1983 shirt underneath a very loud hawaiian GD print shirt with a GD hat. The photos are classic. He said DP15 was “in the can” and a better show had never been found, but he hoped to beat it with 16. He couldn’t wait for this summer’s Shoreline Phish shows, and was ready to take his Picks to the next step… a serious retrospective by-year that was announced last week by his collaborators. ["So Many Roads," the Grateful Dead boxed set to be released soon.]

I know this is long-winded, but only two weeks later I was at the Naeba Prince Hotel in Niigata, Japan, and Phish’s manager popped out of the elevator to sadly deliver the news to me that Dick had suffered a heart attack at home the night before, and was in a coma. It was 30 minutes before the band was to go on at The Green Stage, and here I was in paradise and no one could have understood how much it all meant to me… except maybe Dick. I broke into tears, somehow knowing it just couldn’t work out. I am not religious, but I immediately said a prayer for Dick and his family that their pain would pass swiftly and that he would emerge intact. I felt so helpless and so sad. He was in his absolute prime. He was one of the only people I’ve ever met doing EXACTLY what he wanted exactly as he wished it done.

I made a quick call to his family to offer any help that might be needed and proceeded to enjoy Phish in Japan. I stayed in touch while over there and found that he’d remained in a coma at the hospital until they discontinued life support and took Dick home, playing his favorite tapes at top volume. I returned from Tokyo jet-lagged on Saturday August 7 and was awoken by a call from Dick’s roommate Don giving me the news that he had passed away. I was crushed. I asked what I could do and his family requested that we come to a celebration of Dick’s life in Petaluma. Bad timing that it was, we shot to CA for what truly was a celebration of Dick’s life. What was left and available of the GD came out, spoke, played Dick’s favorite songs to his ashes in front of the Blues for Allah backdrop, which was unfurled for the first time since that tour.

My plans to attend Shoreline with Dick were cancelled, our time together was over, and I am still beside myself with grief. Nonetheless, Dick remains and always will remain a great inspiration to me. His love for the material set him apart from most archivists and his rapport with the fans was incredible. After all, they were the ultimate users of the collection of which he was in charge. He was never too busy, never anything but polite and loving. I will always remember the words of wisdom Dick left me with, his attitude, his smile, his cough. I miss him and wish him the best and it may sound selfish, but I wish that we had enjoyed more time together. Dick was my friend and mentor. He was my brother and I hope he has found his peace. Sorry the answer to this one is so rambling, but if I can leave the world with a fraction of the love and admiration he did, I will have been a success.

CD: I think you already have, Kevin. Thank you. You have assisted with the band’s releases. What did you have to do with respect to the “Hampton Comes Alive” release?

Like any release, it is entirely a team effort, and my part is no greater or less than anyone on the team. The shows weren’t chosen by me, though I constantly (maybe ad nauseum) advocate live releases, and have always suggested release of complete shows whenever possible. In this case, the band suggested a release of the November 1998 Hampton shows soon after the Fall 1998 tour ended. My part in the beginning process was to make copies for the band, as I would any material that they are considering working with. I think they kicked around various ideas among themselves and with management and considered the possibilities. When they decided they liked the Hampton material enough to release it live on CD, planning and production began.

My role at that point was to make safeties of everything, get the master DAT’s to the mastering facility, and make a few reclones later in the process to fix a glitch or two that arose in the process. The resulting set is excellent, in my opinion. I also oversaw — with a lot of help from my assistant, Rob — getting the various photos and images to the design team who was creating the packaging. The designers chose the images and integrated them to create the final packaging and inserts, which are impressive. The decision to break the two shows into their distinct pieces using 6 CD’s (as opposed to trying to make it fit another way), the packaging and presentation and the sheer fact that a live unedited release of any Phish show is coming out are all absolutely mind-blowing to me. I could not be more excited about “Hampton Comes Alive.” To me, it is an encouraging signal that the band is able to live with — and even enjoy — their concerts being released as they happened. It has to be hard as an artist to think any canvas is “The One” … and Phish paint a lot of canvases. People will always debate the fine points, but Phish concerts live and as they happen are, to me, the essence of Phish. With complete live releases being added to everything else that is happening with the band right now, the future seems unlimited.

CD: That’s all I’ve got for now. Thank you, Kevin!

Thank you, Charlie!

COPYRIGHT 1999 PHISH. Phish has given permission for this interview to be exclusively published on Rec.Music.Phish (incl. the Phish.Net Digest) and on the Mockingbird web page. This interview may not be republished anywhere in any form — online or offline — without the express written consent of Phish.

Final Note: I would like to thank Dan Hantman, Benjy Eisen, Rob Boyle and especially Chris Glushko for helping me come up with questions for this interview. Also, if you have anything you think would be good for the Archives, particularly copies of extremely rare master or very low gen AUD tapes (or good pictures of the band from the late 1980′s), please don’t hesitate to drop me or Kevin an email. -Charlie

Follow-Up Questions
(email to cdirksen@earthlink.net)

Caleb Epstein (cae@home.com) asked about CDR as an archival medium, writing:

I’m a big Phish fan, and have tons of shows on CD-R now. I find myself wondering what research Kevin is talking about, and whether I can expect my recordings to stand the test of time. I’d appreciate any more info you or Kevin could provide on this.

Kevin responds:

Very briefly, what I was saying is that archivists and others in the world of conservation and archival science do not consider CDR (or any other digital medium) to be “archival” in the sense that it can be reliably used to hold information for the long-term. The main reason why is that unlike a piece of film that you can hold up to a light and see the image, digital signals can only be read with proper hardware and software–all of which is variable and prone to becoming outmoded. Therefore, there is no digital archival medium. In the more direct sense, CDR is susceptible to a number of problems, especially if it’s not stored in a super-cold, super-dry, dark environment and not played (exactly what Phish and most collectors do not do with their collections). CDR delaminates, scratches very easily and can be ruined by writing too. Life estimates vary from 100 years (from the marketing depts. of some mfgr’s, which depts. are obviously assuming perfect storage conditions and likely exaggerating a bit) down to a couple years. A commonly-accepted number of years is around 8 or 10 under pretty careful conditions. There’s a lot of research to cite on this or you can just watch “the news” where you’ll see NASA has already lost data stored on optical disc during the Mars mission, etc. The archival community is struggling to find another medium that lacks the inherent problems of tape and that is more durable than current optical mediums. In addition to all I’ve said, digital has another big problem (but once you’re with DAT you’ve got it anyway) which is the amount of processing / compression / correction that occurs in the AD/DA conversion(s). A decent place to start that shouldn’t put you immediately to sleep is: http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/Media/Longevity.html. Enjoy! –ks

Dave Abrahams has had a hand in writing several Phish songs, and is the  “Dave” referred to in “McGrupp.” If you enjoy this interview, or have additional questions for a possible follow-up interview, please be in touch with cdirksen@earthlink.net. Special thanks to The Mockingbird Foundation and of course Dave Abrahams for making this interview possible.

A copyright is claimed on this interview by The Mockingbird Foundation. This interview is being published in its complete form exclusively on Rec.Music.Phish and on the Mockingbird web page for the benefit of fans. This interview may not be republished anywhere in any form — online or offline — without the express written consent of the Foundation. Both Dave and I encourage you, however, to link to this Interview from your Phish page.

We realize that you may want to circulate this interview to your friends online, but please, out of respect for The Mockingbird Foundation and its non-profit mission, simply circulate or link to the URL. (The address is http://www.phish.net/mockingbird/book/interviews/abrahams.html.)

Charlie Dirksen: When and where did you first see Phish play?

It was at a bar in Burlington, Hunt’s I think. Year? Aeons ago – mid ’80s. There may have been two such early concerts I went to; I can’t recall. At the time Marc Daubert was living in Burlington; I don’t know if that helps you pin it down at all. I went up with Tom to visit Trey and Marc. I remember that there were some people sitting at tables around the outside of the room. Pretty much the entire dance floor was available, so I took full advantage. Trey still talks about the time I ran towards the stage, dropped to my knees, and slid with my hands hosannah in the air for one of his solos. I think in those days a little audience participation was extra welcome. I also remember some woman talking to her friend on the phone at the back of the room about the upcoming act (Phish) saying “I don’t know; it’s some grateful dead cover band,” so you can see that they were already getting stuck with an inaccurate label in those days. At least one of these shows involved two guys from an R&B/reggae band, much bigger than Phish, who showed up and took over the stage, hijacking Mike’s bass and driving the music in their own particular aggressive direction. After watching the reggae guy play his three well-executed, but ultimately uninteresting 2-note bass riffs for an hour and a half, Mike was heard to say sardonically, “well, at least I learned some reggae bass lines.”

CD: When did you first meet Trey?

We were in school together for a few years, you know, but I don’t know if we ever really communicated much until he went away to Taft. When he came back for the summer as a rhythm guitarist for Space Antelope our mutual interest in music drew us together. One personal interaction stands out in my mind, though. When we were in 8th grade, there was a sort of class camping trip. Trey was still a drummer then, and hadn’t started playing guitar yet. During one of the free periods, I wandered up on a little huddle of guys listening to a cassette on a boombox. It was Steve Howe, playing “The Clap”. When I heard the free way he seemed to be playing I was blown away. “My God” I exclaimed, “he’s just improvising!” Trey shot back “Shut up, he’s great!” Rather than try to explain what I meant I just sat there in silence, taking in the music’s twists and turns. Learning to play that tune would become one of my proudest early achievements on the guitar.

CD: Does it kinda bother you when people take Phish too seriously? It must amuse you that some folks still wonder why it matters that someone looks too much like Dave. They want to be in on the joke.

It doesn’t bother me, but there has been an amazing amount of meaning read into things that were written just because they sounded silly, or just because the words bounced off each other in a particular way. But if someone can find religious meaning in “McGrupp,” well then I’m happy for him. I do want people to understand what an incredible amount of (constructive) idiocy all of us got away with, only sometimes in the name of art. I hope that people will be inspired (and I mean moved to act) by Trey’s boundless enthusiasm for making something, and his undefeatible conviction that it’s going to turn out great.

CD: It seems to me that most people — not necessarily Phish fans — would rather share in the groove than make the effort, and take the risk, to create their own. Everyone has the potential to be creative, of course, and everyone is creative in some way, shape, or form, but listening is an objectively passive (but subjectively active) activity after all. I certainly hope people learn from Trey’s example.

One way in which this came up with Trey was when I saw him backstage one night, and he told me a bunch of phans wanted to find the rhombus. He said that people had written to him, and they really wanted to know where it was; it was a kind of pious impulse on their part to go visit it. He asked me if I thought he should tell them. His first reaction was that it was a bad idea. He was thinking of gangs of kids defiling the place with graffiti or something, but he said the people that were writing to him seemed pretty thoughtful and sincere. Even so, I said that other people visiting the rhombus was somehow missing the point. “They should make up their own mythology,” I offered. Trey really keyed into that point. I remember him saying “that’s exactly right.”

Tom and Marc and I found this place and made it meaningful. Trey became a part of that story through shared experience. I’m a huge fan of many other artists and musicians, but we have our own magical experiences which are deeper than any kind of contact with the people I’m a fan of could be. I think, ultimately, many fans are trying to access that kind of personal magical experience, but don’t know it. For these people, sole pursuit of Phish or anyone else’s creative juice is forever unsatisfying.

CD: I believe that a lot of fans do get “it” and share in the magic, hence why they spend lots of money to see every show they can wherever and whenever they can. They want to be a part of the Experience, to share in the Joy. Which is great. But at the same time, the most intense magic is that which you create yourself. I bet that Trey would say that the “audience” helps create “the magic” of course, and I’d obviously agree.

Yes, he would. And it’s a great attitude to have.

CD: But there’s a big difference, in my opinion, between helping to create magic as part of the Herd, and creating it as an individual will.

Being in the audience and participating in the show is a totally authentic way to be a part of it. I do worry when people start trying to connect with the artist on a more personal level; to capture some part of the artist’s personal experience to the exclusion of, or as a replacement for, their own creativity.

CD: There’s a “Bivouac Jaun” tape that has been circulating, which appears to feature yourself, Trey, Tom and Marc Daubert on a few tunes. What was “Jaun” all about? I’ve heard that “Bivouac” was the name of a band — Marc, Trey and Tom — but where did you fit in?

For the most part, I didn’t. Tom, Trey, and Marc all coincidentally took some time off from college at the same time. While I was away at school in Philly, they were getting busy. I had a really hard time with it, because Tom and Marc had been my steadfast creative partners and because the product was so good. Trey had blossomed into a brilliant guitarist in a very short period of time (I had been playing at least twice as long). I was lucky enough to be able to participate a bit on some weekend visit home or maybe a Thanksgiving break. That’s what you hear on the tape.

CD: How well do you know the members of Phish other than Trey?

I’m friendly with everyone, since I first met them over 10 years ago and have seen them regularly since then. We say hi when we run into each other backstage; I’m sure you can imagine how it is.

CD: I can imagine it, but what is it “like” backstage, anyway? Care to de-mythologize it at all? Most people reading this interview probably have not had the privilege of being at an aftershow or, for that matter, in any of the even more privileged backstage areas. I imagine that unless you already knew people backstage, had friends backstage who you wanted to hang out with, then it wouldn’t be nearly as much fun as the lot scene post-show.

It’s more like an obstacle course of oversized rusty buzz-saws than anything else. There is, as you describe, a hierarchy of privileged areas, with the band, family members, and staff (and anyone else who has managed to scam or grovel for an all-access pass) occupying the most protected area. Often the band will not venture beyond this border. There are plenty of polite but firm security personnel who don’t know you from Adam whose duty it is to keep the borders sealed. Usually my only reason to be backstage is to spend a couple of minutes catching up with old friends. Unless Trey happens to venture into the greater mob and I am lucky enough to catch his eye, I slink away unrewarded. Can you tell how excited I am about the backstage scene?

CD: Sure! What were your musical influences growing up? What instruments did you play? What’s ANDBACK?

Andback is the name of a band founded by Marc Daubert, Tom Marshall, and me in about 1980.

On my thirteenth birthday my brother got an electric guitar. We had just returned from summer vacation in Colorado where my dad had a regular position at the Aspen Center for Physics, and our house was in an unlivable condition. The renovations, which were supposed to be finished while we were away, had taken longer than expected. We were camped out in the architect’s (also unfinished) place of residence and my parents were obviously stressed. As the elder son, I was expected to be mature and understanding that my birthday celebration would be postponed… but somehow Jonathan got an electric guitar, that very day. I don’t remember what I got for my birthday that year, but I do remember that guitar. I remember asking an experienced guitarist who was babysitting my brother to teach me a song from a Bee-Gees songbook. Wisely, I think, he refused.

My parents were open-minded classical music heads and had actually bought copies of a few other things like Quadrophenia and one of the more unlistenable Zappa albums (“Lumpy Gravy”) at the urging of friends. I discovered these after exhausting my appetite for the steady diet of Beatles music which had been available to me. Another great album which I listended to as a kid was an electronic version of “Peter and the Wolf”. It featured, among others, members of Brand X and the incredible Stephane Grapelli.

My brother later decided he liked acoustic guitar better, and when he finally lost interest in that I had two guitars. I tried to play everything I could lay my hands on in those days. The next summer I hung around in a Colorado music store obsessively playing all their guitars and trying to soak up some of the bluegrass picking that was the local lingua franca… until the owner politely suggested that I exercise a few of my other interests, elsewhere.

I had no serious ideas about writing music until a few years later. One day in gym class I heard Tom Marshall and Marc Daubert practicing a harmony: “Moons, moons/ sons of moons/ die in dark hallways,” they sang. It sounded cool, but I didn’t recognize the song. Excited, I asked them what it was. “andback”, Tom said. When they told me that andback was the name of their band I was incredulous at first, then blown away. At the time it was more of a songwriting project than a band, but it wasn’t long before they asked me to join them and we got something going. Tom had a tiny Casio keyboard – really a palm-sized toy – and Marc had an acoustic guitar and a drum kit. I was into electronics in those days and built a crude synthesizer from a kit for Tom to use. We made up songs and recorded them live onto cassettes using my boombox. We listened to them constantly, driving through the farmland that surrounded Princeton in Marc’s International Scout, howling with laughter.

My relationship with Tom and Marc will always be one of the most amazing creative experiences I have ever had. Every minute we spent together in those days was an excuse to write some new bit of music, poetry, or often just a strange incantation. We went camping and shared wild nights building fires and myths of polyhedra. When the creative juices ran dry, we became arch critics, panning our own exploits and cracking ourselves up at the irony of it. Behavior on anyone’s part that was considered embarrassing or out-of-line to the others was a good enough excuse for some sort of sick torture, but somehow that never killed the atmosphere of spontenaeity that we had made for ourselves. In fact, spontaneous torture could arise for its own sake: the “air-conditioned nightmare”, in which an unsuspecting rear-seat passenger was subjected to open windows and full A/C in the dead of winter at high speed, needed no excuse. Then, of course, there was the incident on Aunt Molly Road, but I digress… It’s probably worth noting that punishment was not meted out equally: Marc probably got the worst of it, and Tom was often strangely exempt, though it would be easy to see Tom’s current sad condition as a form of kharmic come-uppance.

In that time I also started to discover new music. In a 500-seat venue at Princeton University, Tom and I saw the Pat Metheney group (its greatest incarnation, with cymbal-master Dan Gottlieb and percussionist Nana Vasconcelos) and King Crimson on its “Discipline” tour. We stood in the little hall face-to-face with Adrian Belew and let the music rip through us. I remember leaving the concert in a state of shock: though a willing participant, I was also totally done-to.

Marc started gravitating more towards guitar playing and songwriting, experimenting with open tunings and slide on his acoustic, and it became clear we needed a full-time drummer to complete the band. We invited Peter Cottone to fill that role and brought in Roger Holloway on bass.

I didn’t really get to know Trey until after he had already gone away to school at Taft. At PDS he had always been one of three drummers (the other two being Pete and Marc), but when he came back one summer playing guitar it was clear that his drumming background had given him incredible grounding. He had been playing rhythm guitar in a cover band for about a year, and while he seemed to repeat the same Grateful Dead material a bit, he really knew how to lock into a groove. For a guy who didn’t “really play lead guitar,” he was impressive. I began living in fear.

“Runaway Jim” originated that summer with Marc and I sitting out by Princeton’s largest fountain. I had been fooling around with the basic song structure, showed Marc how to get that bluegrass rhythm sound with the emphasis on the bass notes, and the lyrics just popped into my head. I guess it’s really true that we’re conduits for the music. I had a couple of single-note lines that I wanted to go between the vocal parts, one of which sounded just like the kind of stuff Trey had been playing. I don’t know how we arranged it, but I do remember being back at the fountain, working out the song between the three of us. For some reason I never understood, the song was causing Trey frustration that day. During Trey’s hiatus from school years later, and also for some reason I didn’t understand, we had this short conversation:

“Hey Dave, remember that song Runaway Jim?”
“Yeah…”
“What a stupid song [laughter]!”

So imagine my shock when Phish opened a concert at the Somerville Theater with my tune! Trey had added a verse and a chorus, but it was basically the same song.

[talk more about your other influences, and the instruments that you play]

CD: What’s the story behind “Dave’s Energy Guide?” You are “Dave,” after all.

First, Tom Marshall and I went to see King Crimson play at Alexander Hall at Princeton University. It was an incredible show in a 500-seat round church (that’s also where I saw my first Pat Metheny Group concert, when they were in their incredible Dan Gottlieb/Nana Vasconcelos configuration). Not a bad seat in the place. They played cuts from “Discipline” and even a few from “Beat”, which hadn’t been released yet. A revelation.

*** Begin Guitar-Geek Material ***
I was blown away by Adrian Belew’s free, spare, avant-garde style and by Robert Fripp’s intricate, precise picking patterns. I tried to emulate both of them, but mostly I wanted to improve my technique to Fripp’s level. I invented one of the DEG themes as a picking exercise. Because it is easier to play some patterns which skip between strings beginning with an upstroke or downstroke I arranged the exercise to force me to repeat the same patterns in both directions. The pattern is built out of repeating parts which are extended to keep the total number of notes between repeats always an odd number. The pattern is 5-6-5-7, and sounds a *lot* like something you’d hear on “Discipline.”
*** End guitar-geek material ***

One summer Trey and I went to a guitar camp, the National Guitar Summer Workshop. I studied Jazz and bluegrass. I think Trey was doing Jazz and classical… maybe. Anyway, they had a performance night, and Trey and I decided to make the DEG pattern into a tune for performance. We put the pattern together with one of us playing 5-6-5-7 and the other one playing 5-6-5-6, so they would go out of synch and eventually come back together in synchrony after 22 repetitions. This is a standard King Crimson trick. There were also a few shifts where we’d go into harmony, etc. I don’t know if it had a name, but it wasn’t called “Energy Guide” or “Dave’s” anything. We played it twice, and messed it up both times. It’s really easy to drop a note and if you lose track of where you are in the pattern, God help you. Some kid went up on stage and played an acoustic solo piece he had written, and we decided our thing was formulaic B.S. We left the hall shivering with delight.

At some point Trey formed Phish and the next time we played together he showed me another part to the DEG song, whatever it was called. He said he had walked into a party and seen Fishman sitting on a couch playing this diamond-shaped pattern on the guitar. Trey seized on it and incorporated it into the song. Meanwhile, I had written another part, but I don’t think that ever made it into a Phish rendition of DEG. When I finally got up to Burlington to see them perform it, Trey hung a yellow diamond-shaped sign (promotional material for Con Edison or something) on the mic stand. It said “Energy Guide”.

And that’s the story. I don’t think they play it much anymore partly because it’s really a two-guitar song – it must be hard to get the right sound with guitar and keys.

CD: It sounds fine to me with guitar and keys. I wish they played it more often, frankly. Ok, for the record, who is Guy Forge?

Some tennis player guy, I don’t know. I think he has a pyromaniac girlfriend named “Bubba”.

CD: You’ve written some Phish lyrics and helped write several of their songs, but what’s your regular job?

I trash other people’s living rooms so they can collect the insurance.

CD: What are you listening to these days? Have any favorite bands?

I hardly listen to music anymore.

CD: Do you pay attention to on-line criticism of the band’s music, including songs that you had a hand in writing? Are you a subscriber to the phishnet digest?

Nope. I do own a personally autographed copy of “George Bush’s Boyhood Dream”, though.

CD: That rocks.

That does not “rock.” His boyhood dream is all wet inside.

CD: You live in Boston. Do you have a favorite music store in town, e.g., the Newbury Comics/Tower combination?

Not really; I seldom buy CDs. I guess you could say I’m basically an unmusical person.

CD: Uh-huh. What was your most memorable Phish show?

There was one show at the Providence Civic Center about 4 years ago which just made me so… happy. There wasn’t a single detail I could seize on to say that it made the difference, but that night I decided I would try to see Phish whenever I got the chance.

CD: Is there a story behind the “Looks too much like Dave” line in “McGrupp”?

Nope. Tom wrote it and I didn’t know until I heard Trey say it on stage.

CD: Who is Guelah Papyrus? Who are Elihu and Lemore, who are mentioned in “Sample”?

Well, my mother’s name was Geulah. I don’t know who Guelah is, but coincidentally (?) it’s pronounced the same.

Elihu is my dad’s name. They used the Israeli pronunciation in the song, but in my dad’s case the accent is on the first syllable. It’s an unusual name, but he’s being inducted into the American Academy of Arts and Sciences this fall with an unbelievable two other guys named Elihu, so it can’t be all that kooky.

All in all, I’m surprised I didn’t end up with a name like “Schmecky”.

Lemore, I think, is the name of Tom’s first love. I’m not sure I want to say any more, though; you might have to ask him about that.

CD: Can you name all of the Phish songs that you helped in some way to write? Any special stories behind the genesis of any of them?

On albums:

“Glide”:
Trey, Tom, and I were sitting on a bronze Henry Moore sculpture on Princeton University campus late one night. I don’t remember how the words came up. I’m not sure I actually had anything to do with it, but they generously gave me an album credit.

“Slave”:
This was written during the “Bivouac” phase. Trey had this whole instrumental thing he had worked out around just singing the title of the song. I tried to imagine what it might mean to be a slave to the traffic light, and riffed the other line. I thought it was pretty stupid, and was almost embarrassed when Trey siezed on it and put it in the song. Trey has a talent for finding the greatness in the inane.

“Fast Enough For You”:
was first recorded by Trey, Tom, and I at my parents’ house: I wrote one line (see if you can guess which). The Wedge, which Trey changed completely after that recording (definitely for the better) was also recorded that day but I didn’t write any part of it.

CD: “Fast” is one of my favorite of Phish’s slow, soulful tunes. By the way, what did you think of the huge “Runaway Jim” that Phish played in Worcester in Fall 1997?

I am proud anytime they play that song, and I’m deeply gratified that it has turned into such an opportunity for amazing jams… but, you’ll probably be shocked to hear, I don’t remember that particular version.

CD: Do you have any “personal favorite” versions of the songs that you helped to write?

Not being a tapey-head Phish trivia weenie, I don’t have such a mental catalogue of individual performances. I’ve heard a few amazing live concert tapes, though.

CD: Do any particular Phish lyrics hold special meaning to you?

The one that immediately pops into my head is “Julius”. That song paints an incredible picture of a emperor who is about to fall, and it stands out among Tom’s lyrics as being written from a character’s perspective. But that doesn’t really answer your question, does it?

Hmm, the first time I heard “Horn” it really affected me deeply. Everything Phish had done before seemed so… peppy. It was great to hear them play melancholy as well.

I don’t know about meaning, though. I don’t relate to art on the concrete level much. For me, it’s all about how it makes me feel or think.

CD: Disco Saul, a legendary Phish fan who loves plants, has a croton plant which he has had since Earth Day his freshman year, which is named after you. How does that make you feel? (This was due to a certain “strange” experience that he had with the 5/13/94 McGrupp, about a year after he acquired the plant.)

Holy chlorophyll, Batman! That is probably a step up the evolutionary ladder for Davekind. It makes me feel all meaningful inside.

CD: Excellent! As well it should. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy life for this interview, Dave!